Welcome to Revenue Boost: A Marketing Podcast, the go-to resource for business leaders seeking actionable strategies to grow revenue and build lasting success. In today’s episode, titled "Creating Marketing That Sticks: Lessons in Balancing Data, Emotion, and Long-Term ROI," host Kerry Curran sits down with Preston Rutherford, co-founder of Chubbies, to explore the delicate balance between short-term wins and long-term growth in marketing.

Preston shares the fascinating journey of building Chubbies into a household name, from its disruptive beginnings to its $100M exit. Along the way, he unpacks the four stages of brand evolution and reveals how marketers can strike the perfect balance between data-driven decision-making and emotionally resonant storytelling. From leveraging financial insights to justifying brand investments to the C-suite, this conversation is packed with real-world advice for navigating the complexities of modern marketing.

If you’ve ever wondered how to align your marketing strategy with both short-term goals and long-term profitability, this episode is for you. Tune in and discover the keys to creating marketing that sticks!

Podcast transcript

Kerry Curran, RBMA (00:01.336)

So welcome, Vinod Varma. Please introduce yourself and tell us a bit about your background and expertise.

Vinod Varma (00:07.298)

Hey, Kerry. My name is Vinod Varma. I'm the CEO and co-founder of Creator.co. We're an influencer platform focused on social commerce. My background has been in sales and marketing and particularly go-to-market strategies for some really cool brands like Fitbit, Samsung, Sony, Garmin, et cetera. Played a hand in launching wearables in Canada and we used thousands of influencers through that campaign and through launching those brands nationally. And Creator is really the genesis of a lot of the learnings that we had from those successful launches. And today, Creator helps hundreds of brands and hundreds of thousands of influencers connect, collaborate, and drive more revenue.

Kerry Curran, RBMA (00:31.886)

And launching those brands passionately and Creator is really the genesis of a lot of the learnings that we had from those successful launches and today Creator helps us with hundreds of brands and hundreds of thousands of influencers.

And drive more revenue. Excellent. Well, thank you. You know, you're on the, you have a front row seat, I should say, to the evolution of influencer and creator marketing. So what do you see as the hottest trends these days?

Vinod Varma (01:03.234)

Today without, I mean, of course the obvious in AI and everything it's touching, but I think beyond that, social commerce is really coming to the forefront here. More and more people are okay with buying through social media, buying from creators they love and follow. And we are seeing that come to life through different tailwinds in the market at large. So I think, yeah, social commerce is the big one that we're really excited about.

Kerry Curran, RBMA (01:32.854)

Excellent. So of the social commerce trends, it sounds like TikTok is taking off more than the other platforms. Like what are you seeing there?

Vinod Varma (01:43.244)

TikTok is definitely leading the charge when it comes to social commerce in North America, I would say. And I think they've just done a good job in executing the product and making it easy for users of TikTok to buy from creators. And at the same time, I don't think Instagram, Snapchat, Pinterest are far behind. I think Twitch is also a sleeper right now.

Kerry Curran, RBMA (01:55.874)

Mm-hmm.

Vinod Varma (02:07.16)

To us, evolution makes sense. We are totally channel agnostic and we think that people are gonna, the trend will move towards people buying from creators regardless of what that channel is.

Kerry Curran, RBMA (02:22.444)

Yeah, no, it makes a lot of sense because the benefits of the creator and influencer, the trust with the audience and the feeling like that influencer is your friend maybe and you want their recommendations. I mean, not speaking for myself necessarily, but no, I've definitely purchased a lot from different influencers and creators.

You get excited about it. I mean, my daughter wants everything she sees on YouTube. It makes a lot of sense when you think about just the psychology behind marketing and how people buy from people they trust or recommendations from people they know is one of the top referrals for brands.

It definitely makes sense from that perspective. So I know it's not as easy as it looks to get started. So talk us through kind of when you your brands, your clients contact you and start working with you. What are the phases or important things they need to think about before just flipping the switch on TikTok shop, for example?

Vinod Varma (03:31.318)

Yeah, mean, a great question. I think for TikTok Shop in particular, if they're already set up on TikTok Shop, that makes it really easy to work with a platform like Creator. If they're not set up on TikTok Shop as an approved partner, we can accelerate that process. But I will say for brands who are watching this that want to get there and then that is not, we feel your pain. We know it's not easy. It is not very …

Kerry Curran, RBMA (03:55.21)

Yeah.

Vinod Varma (03:58.968)

… simple frictionless process that you would think of when you look at a large billion dollar company. is very much startup vibes when it comes to TikTok shops. I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing. It makes them super agile and able to react quickly to what they're seeing from their customers. But also the downside is, it makes it a little bit more frustrating for new brands who want to get set up. So give yourself a month plus to get set up properly. If you're already set up the way we typically like to …

Kerry Curran, RBMA (04:09.57)

Mm-hmm.

Vinod Varma (04:28.885)

… work with our clients is in strategic phases. So first understand what the North Star is and what they're looking to accomplish, whether it be more top of funnel, bottom of funnel activity. And then we'll start to work in working kinds of sprints and batches of different influencers. And what we try to do is try to evaluate the first bit of content that comes out from an influencer and the ones who perform really, really well will position the, ambassadorship as kind of a step up program, something that's a little bit more prestigious that they are invited into, not necessarily just accepted into. And we use the first post and the first bit of content to gauge their eligibility to get into that program and what we set the threshold at.

And we use kind of our almost a gifted or maybe a smaller upfront payment to fill the funnel, top of funnel. And when I'm talking about the funnel, I mean the funnel of influencers that we're going to strategically use throughout the campaign. And then the ones who create really good, engaging content, those are the ones that we invite to become part of the ambassadorship. And those are the ones that we nurture on a regular basis. We are including them …

Kerry Curran, RBMA (05:13.39)

Mm-hmm.

Vinod Varma (05:39.05)

… in product knowledge training, we're giving them all of the right features and benefit sheets to talk about. Sometimes they're receiving quarterly gift baskets from the brand of new product launches or updates, and it makes them feel like they're really a part of the brand versus a more transactional relationship, and that seems to help keep the brand.

Kerry Curran, RBMA (05:56.344)

Mm-hmm.

Vinod Varma (06:04.236)

… keep the brand's share of voice really high when it comes to what they're talking about. And that's where we start seeing success is kind of focusing on building these communities of ambassadors who are attached to these brands. And that's where you'll see the long tail success come from.

Kerry Curran, RBMA (06:07.16)

Yeah, it definitely sounds like a more strategic partnership, community building strategy. I know you mentioned, I want to go deeper, but where you talked about ensuring that you're building awareness before just going for driving sales. So talk about what you're seeing a bit more about making sure that you have brands that have awareness and that it's not going to be just a cash cow to know, just get into a TikTok shop. Talk more about that upper funnel importance.

Vinod Varma (06:54.198)

Yeah, and it's actually a TikTok report that I was reading a couple of weeks ago on, I think it was called the awareness advantage. And what it highlighted was the cost per conversion compared to a brand that is known or trusted with a particular audience and a brand that is not. And it is almost a 3x difference in conversion when you already have awareness and trust established with a community versus not. And so I think understanding who your target audience is and if they're aware of you or not is really key when it comes to budgeting for your marketing campaign, because if …

Kerry Curran, RBMA (07:22.67)

Mm-hmm.

Vinod Varma (07:35.034)

… you're focused on spending a budget that is really correlated with the bottom of funnel activity, you might be inflating your CPC, CPA significantly because everyone is almost having to work backwards from your ad and it's like, wait, who are you? And then they're going to your TikTok, they're going to your website, they're trying to do their own research versus if they already know you and you're presenting them with an offer that's time-bound.

Kerry Curran, RBMA (07:41.72)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, and that's it's so important because we're seeing that across, you know, marketing strategy in general, I think so many brands were just, you know, obsessed with performance marketing and needed to see that every dollar was actually immediately driving return where you write they have to I was talking about this with my clients as well. They have to have heard of you. And then they have to like you, they have to believe that you can solve their challenge or problem.

Before they want to purchase. Now there's, you especially with direct to consumer brands, that can happen a lot more quickly, but it's definitely still important as you pointed out to invest in that kind of upper funnel awareness and that the demand generation initiatives, even if it can't be tied back immediately to conversion to your point, you're kind of building that, that awareness and that, that connection with the audiences.

Vinod Varma (08:57.783)

Yeah.

You cannot skip the stages of a sales funnel unless you're like a sub $20 product and, you know, if impulse purchases bode well for you and the branding's done, then maybe you get lucky. And I would say that's more of a stroke of luck for marketing strategy.

Kerry Curran, RBMA (09:21.484)

Yeah, yeah, no, definitely. And so I know we talked about kind of the, kind of rolling the influencer onto the program. I loved the idea of the ambassador program to build that connection and relationship. One of the things we talked about too, especially as social commerce is getting more important and evolving, what are you seeing as far as kind of the follow-up follower volume versus just ability to kind of really connect and drive sales. What are you seeing today?

Vinod Varma (09:58.986)

Yeah, it's an interesting discussion. I don't think we've seen a clear trend yet. And I think that with social commerce being less dependent on the influencers following size and maybe more dependent on their salesmanship, that I think, you know, and I'm speaking to this.

Because we don't have enough data to solidify what the trend is, or at least the correlation between following size and output in terms of GMV. But what we're seeing in Asia, which is having a ton of success when it comes to social commerce, and everyone seems to be buying from their creators on social media or their influencers, is just...

Kerry Curran, RBMA (10:29.101)

Mm-hmm.

Vinod Varma (10:45.014)

… this incredible amount of focus on production and salesmanship or showmanship in live streaming and social commerce. And what we're seeing isn't necessarily dependent on their size, but more so the production itself, the words that they're using, their CTAs, the offer. So I think we're seeing, we're moving towards a world where following size, although important maybe for an awareness play to get eyeballs on it and impressions for conversion. think the playing field with social …

Kerry Curran, RBMA (10:49.144)

Mm-hmm.

Vinod Varma (11:14.89)

… is going to be a little bit leveled and it will come down to showmanship, salesmanship and being able to put on a good production that makes people want to buy similar to the shopping channel.

Kerry Curran, RBMA (11:26.606)

Yeah, no, it definitely makes sense. And I believe, as you said, that's definitely starting to pick up here a bit and by holiday next year will probably be in full force. So I know we talked a bit about TikTok shops being the most dominant. I think you said it's about 90 % of the market for North America with Snapchat and Pinterest kind of picking up pace. But so let's dive in a bit more to the tactics behind getting set up on TikTok. So I know you said it can take a while, like a month to get it going as TikTok. Now, it makes sense that as you said, startup mode, they're kind of building the plane as it's taking off and evolving quickly. But so just share a few of the steps or things that brands need to know or plan for when getting set up on TikTok.

Vinod Varma (12:22.07)

Yeah, the procurement process is not easy. need to have all of your bank, A, for any of our Canadian listeners or ours, your Canadian listeners, you can't. So you do need to set up an IP that can ping from the US. You need to make sure you've got a US bank account, US shipping address, and all of that stuff. A, only US, it's a lot easier for US brands. And still, you need to have all of your banking info in order.

All like it is think about almost applying for a mortgage as your business like that is the amount of information they require and …

Kerry Curran, RBMA (12:58.497)

Wow.

Vinod Varma (13:02.978)

… the nice thing is when you typically apply for a mortgage, you've got a broker that's helping you along. And in this case, you might have an agency like the creator or somebody else working on your behalf and helping you through the process. But the feedback coming back from TikTok's end is just a little sparse, we'll say. And so it can make it difficult and often frustrating. But once you're set up, the user experience is pretty straightforward.

Kerry Curran, RBMA (13:11.202)

Mm-hmm.

Vinod Varma (13:29.036)

Finding influencers who are engaged is fairly straightforward, although there are some issues right now on TikTok's interface or TikTok search database where it's very difficult to get a hold of the creator. And that's probably more of a function of so many brands reaching out to these individuals that they can't respond. But it is still frustrating when the best creators on TikTok …

Kerry Curran, RBMA (13:50.306)

Mm-hmm.

Vinod Varma (13:56.374)

… don't have time to get back to you, because as a brand, that's where you want to focus. I think that'll twofold. I think as more creators get familiar with selling on TikTok, that imbalance will start to correct itself between supply and demand for the creators and the brands. And as consumers shift the way they want it, I think what will happen is, different types of content styles will start to resonate with different consumers. And so I think that evolution has yet to take place. Think with AI and the more creative we can get with it, we will see new types of videos that really capture users' attention. so I think that will breed a new type of creator and that will, the innovation in the space will balance out the supply and demand, I think.

Kerry Curran, RBMA (14:41.23)

Mm-hmm.

Definitely. There are other other kinds of so once you have your finances set up and approved with TikTok matching with the creators, which I know you can help brands match with the creator before or outside of the TikTok platform. Are there any other kinds of steps or stages? Obviously, the content creation, but anything else that the brand needs to keep in mind?

Vinod Varma (15:12.47)

Yeah, have a really tight product catalog that you want to make accessible. Make sure that the descriptions, the imagery, everything that you use is dialed in and ready to convert. I would say make sure you focus on that optimization, or sorry, optimizing that conversion funnel from your product catalog to their checkout system. Yeah, it's like setting up a whole new Shopify store, but a couple a little bit more difficult because it's something that you might not be used to some of the terminology that they use or you might not find the answers are front and center when you have questions. And so working with an agency can definitely help speed that along and help add some clarity to the process.

Kerry Curran, RBMA (15:56.643)

Yeah, that's definitely helpful. Any other last tips for brands that want to get started in TikTok?

Vinod Varma (16:11.064)

Get ahead of it. I think, now, 20, 30 years ago, everyone was saying you need to be social or you're going to miss the ball. And that turned out to be true. The brands that were on there early now have tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of followers, brands that are trying to get on now or struggling to get there in velocity. And so I think, you know, dipping your, it's not even about dipping your toes. I think they need to dive in. need to …

Kerry Curran, RBMA (16:13.784)

Yeah. Hmm.

Vinod Varma (16:39.668)

… expect they need to budget for making mistakes and experimenting on it. And it's not just TikTok. I think what we're hearing is that Amazon is going to be unlocking their product catalog to Snapchat, to Pinterest, to Twitch. And I think that those are all really, really powerful conversion channels for brands that are currently being completely underutilized or and they're about to …

Kerry Curran, RBMA (16:56.504)

Yep. Mm-hmm.

Vinod Varma (17:09.574)

… blow up in a big big way and I think if you can get ahead of it and get used to the type of content that is found to be engaging on those channels you will set yourself up for long-tail success because social commerce I think is is going to be the way of the future as people are no longer you know the channel of where you buy from won't matter as much as who you buy it from.

Kerry Curran, RBMA (17:31.586)

Yeah, no, definitely. That makes a ton of sense, and it's exciting to see the evolution and anticipate what it will be, especially when Amazon starts playing as well. One question I just thought of is when you're talking to brands or even larger media agencies, where does social commerce tend to sit? Is it sitting with a social media team? Is it sitting with an e-commerce team? Does it vary?

Vinod Varma (17:58.52)

Great question. I would assume in the next five years there will just be a social commerce team and it will probably have different pillars that involve influencer and affiliate and probably e-commerce as well.

Kerry Curran, RBMA (18:04.652)

Yeah. Yep. Mm-hmm.

Vinod Varma (18:12.918)

Right now we're seeing it lean towards, honestly, it slots in between PR and influencer and affiliate. To us, PR straddles the line. That's where most of traditional influencer marketing has lived. Now we're seeing it come into more of a traditional marketing sense and even further down the conversion funnel into an affiliate sense.

Kerry Curran, RBMA (18:24.535)

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yep.

Vinod Varma (18:42.272)

And so yeah, most of the teams we speak to when it comes to social commerce, most brands and agencies are bringing in a few different POCs from those teams, whether it's PR, or they have a dedicated influencer team, or they have an affiliate team, which most brands do. And it's usually two or three people joining those calls because it does involve things that they oversee.

Kerry Curran, RBMA (18:51.725)

Yeah, no, definitely. It'll be interesting to see. I just when retail media became a thing and it took a while for brands and agencies to kind of figure out where it sits and it still differs. So it's just that it will be interesting to watch, especially the overlap between the like you said, the PR affiliate side of the house versus the social media buying side of the house will be interesting. And so one last question, you talked a lot about AI. So tell us, what's your prediction? How do think the industry is going to be embracing AI even more?

Vinod Varma (19:48.04)

Yeah, I have predictions. I think it's unfolding every day. Few things I believe to my core is that people appreciate authenticity and originality. And I don't think that will change. I think that sentiment has withstood the test of time.

Kerry Curran, RBMA (19:52.034)

Yeah.

Vinod Varma (20:08.79)

People don't pay a lot of money for replicas, even though they look identical. It's all about the original. So I don't think that will change. I think we'll come to appreciate original work a lot more. So where I think it'll be interesting to see is how many people actually gravitate towards AI-generated content or AI influencers. I think it will be a fad. I don't think it will be something that lives for the long run.

Kerry Curran, RBMA (20:12.974)

Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Vinod Varma (20:36.824)

… at least at this stage for the next 10 years, would say. Where it's really exciting is making the lives of marketers and influencers easier. And I think that from content creation, we already know that is taking leaps and bounds. And I would expect by next year, you can create most of the content you're looking to produce through AI and what …

Kerry Curran, RBMA (20:49.174)

Right, right. Mm-hmm.

Vinod Varma (21:03.884)

… will be interesting is like, what is the balance between original content and something that the influencer created versus AI? An example could be, an influencer or creator might create one piece of content or produce a video and then use AI to change backgrounds, to change a bunch of things at scale, which I think is okay. And where ...

Kerry Curran, RBMA (21:22.464)

Mm-hmm. Yep. Yep.

Vinod Varma (21:29.004)

… be interesting as if the entire video, like Coke just produced and put out an entire video that was produced by AI. And I put out a poll and it turned, I haven't shared the results of it, but I'll tell you now, most people are not here for it or have some concerns. They want and appreciate that originality, that authenticity, especially from a legacy brand like Coke. So I think it's really interesting. I think it's exciting because we'll become a lot more efficient. We'll see new types of content …

Kerry Curran, RBMA (21:33.324)

Right, right, yeah.

Vinod Varma (21:58.901)

… that we weren't able to do before, at least not without a big production studio. But it's going to take away from the artistry of it all, and marketing is very much an art and a science. And so I think it'll be really interesting. I think my prediction is authenticity holds true for what resonates with consumers, but we'll be able to produce a lot more content and a lot more impactful content with AI by our side.

Kerry Curran, RBMA (22:27.308)

Yeah, I definitely agree. I think you're spot on that the authenticity and creativity will remain, but we'll just get more efficient with automation and AI based tools to make us more efficient. But I definitely agree and hope that we don't go down a path of just AI generated content and robots from Hawking product. So, no, but this is...

Vinod Varma (22:48.364)

Me too. Yeah.

Kerry Curran, RBMA (22:55.404)

This is helpful. Great. So, Vinod, thank you so much for all of your insight and expertise today. Super valuable and helpful and hope we can have you on again soon.

Vinod Varma (22:59.701)

Thanks, Kerry. Can't wait for the next time for us to catch up.

Kerry Curran, RBMA (23:10.794)

Excellent. And sorry, before I let you go, tell everyone how they can find you and Creator Co.

Vinod Varma (23:17.662)

Just creator.co. Visit our website. You can drop in, sign up as a brand or a creator. You can also find me on LinkedIn, Vinod Varma Varma, attached to creator.co as the company. Yeah, excited to hear from anyone who's got questions.

Kerry Curran, RBMA (23:32.532)

Excellent. Great. Well, thank you so much.

Vinod Varma (23:35.8)

Thanks, Kerry. Appreciate it. Have a great day. Thanks, everyone, for listening.