In this episode of Revenue Boost: A Marketing Podcast, host Kerry Curran sits down with Jim Nichols, CEO of Exclamation Marketing, to explore the essential strategies for aligning sales and marketing to drive real revenue growth. With decades of experience across brand, agency, and tech sectors, Jim shares valuable insights on overcoming the disconnect between sales and marketing, and how to create scalable, repeatable systems for startup success. Learn how to build trust, communicate better with sales teams, and develop powerful customer-focused stories that convert. Whether you’re an executive looking to boost sales or a marketing leader aiming to strengthen relationships with your sales counterparts, this episode is packed with actionable strategies to accelerate growth. Don’t miss Jim’s expert tips on how to turn alignment into opportunities and create lasting revenue impact!

Podcast transcript

Kerry Curran, RBMA (00:01.804)

And welcome Jim, please introduce yourself and tell us a bit about your background and experience.

Jim Nichols (00:07.66)

Thank you so much for having me on. You know, I'm your biggest fanboy. So we'll just move on from there. My name is Jim Nichols. I've been working in marketing for longer than I care to admit I started before digital and worked in packaged goods but have since worked on the brand the agency and the media partner or technical technology partner side I've had, I've been fortunate enough to have a really broad background in that way and to understand what's similar about the different organizations, but also what's different. So currently I am running a small agency called exclamation marketing that focuses on what I call stratification, which is basically working with A and B stage companies to set a general strategic framework and then get programs into the field, start testing messages, et cetera to get them just out there and selling faster.

Kerry Curran, RBMA (01:06.574)

Yeah, no, that's great. And it's definitely an area that's much needed as we're seeing a lot of startups have the great idea but don't really know how to bring it to market. Definitely.

Jim Nichols (01:20.112)

And I feel like there's just so often that there's that disconnect, which is going to be our theme here between sales and marketing. Like I hate it when you walk into an organization and sales thinks marketing is clueless and marketing thinks sales is lazy, right? And in a way they're both right, but they're both fundamentally wrong. There's just a Mars and Venus kind of a situation going on, but we have to find alignment if we're going to make these companies grow and be stronger.

Kerry Curran, RBMA (01:48.012)

Right. Yeah. And like, you know, that's an area that I've been leaning into as we've talked about, because there's, to your point, a lot of times marketing is perceived as, you know, fluffy, the order takers, the ones that make your PowerPoint look nice. But, you know, that's a lot of the research and work that I've been doing as well of revenue-based marketing, really tying back the connection between a strong marketing strategy to your point of what the companies you're working getting them set up to go to market and kind of starting that process. it's more than just having a really good product and sales shouldn't always be the first point of connection. So I'd love to hear a bit of the approach that you take for your clients or some of the challenges that you've solved for.

Jim Nichols (02:37.18)

Sure, I'd say in almost every case I walk into a situation where this is kind of true, where the organizations don't really recognize the potential value of marketing as a business engine, right? That's why I was so excited to read more about Revenue Boost and your organization, because when we get the alignment between marketing and sales, it can work beautifully. The challenge for sellers, right, is that you need to have a really good story and you need to have this balance between what I need this week, …

Kerry Curran, RBMA (02:47.815)

Right.

Jim Nichols (03:06.234)

… and what I need two years from now. And so often what I see in startups is that there's a sheer force of will sales effort in the beginning where like the CEO, because they have a vision for this product and they're so enthusiastic and excited about it, they can sell it, but there's no scalability or repeatability, right? And so you bring in sellers and there's no training for them and there's no real story and there's, people don't have the same background that …

Kerry Curran, RBMA (03:25.956)

Right.

Jim Nichols (03:35.9)

… entrepreneurs have driven that entrepreneur for 24 hours a day since. And so I feel like a big part of my job is to gain the trust with sales and to prove that I'm aligned with them, but at the same time to really start saying, okay, let's think a little bit more about the customer's perspective rather than our perspective. And let's talk in terms of what they're going to understand. I work with a lot of martech companies. And so a big issue is that the startups selling math and marketing people tend to be English majors, right? And so I feel like a lot of my job is to sell math to English majors. And so you've got to get conceptual and talk at a high level and get away from the language that creates distance, right? Like algorithm to me is one of those words, because we all kind of know that it's a good thing, but most people don't actually know what it means, right? And I always start by saying, know, algorithm just means way.

Kerry Curran, RBMA (04:21.05)

Right.

Jim Nichols (04:32.528)

Right? We have an algorithm too. It's like, have a way to do this and it's mathematical. It's like, okay, I can live with that. Right? So trust is important, but then I think also really building in that empathy and also showing that I am just as focused as they are on creating opportunities. Right? I'm just doing it from a slightly different perspective and angle, and I'm trying to do it so we have something to work on today, but that we have more to work …

Kerry Curran, RBMA (04:37.528)

Right. Yep. Yep.

Jim Nichols (05:00.846)

… in the future. And that's where we just have to get that time perspective between the two groups, get some alignment.

Kerry Curran, RBMA (05:09.336)

Yeah, no, for sure. And I think what's been really interesting in the conversations I've been having is one fractional CMO, career fractional CMO that I spoke with, I asked her about the founders and how much they do often, the very broad generalization of all founders, but really lean into marketing. And she said often the challenges to your point of like the people who lived and breathed that product they think that they have it covered and they don't think they need that marketing support. Then, speaking with another woman, Cynthia White, who is on one of my other podcasts, she does market research. And she said so often they'll come to her with a product and say, find me the customers. And then it's like, find me the audience fit. so it's like, that's excites me about, you know, kind of the stories you have and the work that I've been doing is, know, right, somebody knows that their product or solution is unique, but unless they have that framework, that storytelling and getting it out of just the data of, we do X percentage at, you know, Y cost, it's the, this is why this makes your life this is how it makes, know, this is the audience that it fits for. And this is the, like, I like what you said about putting it into the customer's perspective. This is why they want it, not that you want it.

Jim Nichols (06:49.692)

Well, this is why I fell in platonic love with you the first time I talked to you because in the industry in which we operated this, you know, kind of partnership space, right? So many companies are focusing on me, me, me, right? It's like, this is what I do. And we've both worked at agencies. We've both spent a lot of time at agencies, right? And we've both been in a situation where you're pitching the biggest brand and then where you're pitching, let's, let's you and I pitch PepsiCo, right? Or Coca-Cola.

Kerry Curran, RBMA (06:53.85)

It's mutual. Mm-hmm.

Jim Nichols (07:17.532)

Any walking in the standard deck that they present is 93 slides about the agency that talks about the office in Helsinki and this and that and they don't care right now that matters and so the first thing I try to do with the deck is all the stuff about us once like right we're big we're bold we've got great clients now let's talk about you.

Kerry Curran, RBMA (07:23.172)

Mm-hmm.

Kerry Curran, RBMA (07:34.808)

Yes. Yep.

And this is why it benefits you, right? Like we talked about that too. It's not just, I'm the biggest, I'm the oldest. No, yeah.

Jim Nichols (07:42.446)

Yeah, exactly. so they talk about it, I'm sorry. Yes. Right. And, and it's just, what it shows to me is a lack of empathy and relevance and understanding. If you're picking an agency, what would be worse qualities than a lack of empathy? Right. Because that's how we get stories in, you know, the last job that I had working for another company was at Partnerize.

When I interviewed for the job, they had like five or six finalists for the CMO role. And I was told in my interview, you're the first marketing person that's asked me about leads and opportunities and what the situation is there. A lot of people have told me about elevating the brand and all the rest of this. But what you're saying is that your job is to drive opportunities. And it's like, well, yeah, this is B2B and there's VC money in here and private equity money in here. And they don't care …

Kerry Curran, RBMA (08:30.318)

Right. Connecting it.

Jim Nichols (08:38.428)

… blue 212 or 2 blue through 213 and I'm not belittling the importance of brand dress. But ultimately, if you're not selling stuff, you're not adding value, right? And you're not going to, you're not going to, you're not building the business in which you're.

Kerry Curran, RBMA (08:56.538)

Right. Yeah. And so that's, you know, I've been on the business development side for, marketing side for agencies since the Aughts. And it's been, I remember the stories when we first started and, you know, working with consultants as well and saying, you know, I've worked with some really big brands. I was at iProspect and I was at, with Group and this, to your point, like you can't come in and say, we're the biggest. It needs to be, how is …

… beneficial. And when it comes to the agencies, it's the, we've done the research, we understand what your business challenge is. And this is how we are going to solve it with our arsenal of solutions. And sometimes it's like this solution and this solution, it's not, you know, one size fits.

Jim Nichols (09:48.668)

Right, I was on the business development team too. I was a comms planner for a lot of the time that I worked at Cara for instance. And when we pitched, I got to do the fun part, which was the 20 minute unit about what we think about you in your business. How are we right? How are we wrong? Right? And based on how are we right? Like here are the ideas that we had, right? We recognize you know more about the business than we do, but we wanted to come in here with a perspective and a point of view.

Kerry Curran, RBMA (09:52.484)

Yeah. Yeah.

Jim Nichols (10:18.31)

… because that's what you want from us, right? And most of the time we were pretty right. There were times when we were completely wrong, but still won the business because we had tried, right? That we had actually thought through their needs.

Kerry Curran, RBMA (10:32.376)

Right. Or even just demonstrating the process that you took. So demonstrating that we will, you know, if this isn't right, we do have a way that we will want to learn with you. And I was to that point as well, I always talk about one of the first initiatives in the scope of work is a knowledge transfer. You know, like this is what we know today. But once we're working together, we're going to learn everything we can about you to ensure what we're doing is customized.

Jim Nichols (10:38.725)

Yes! Well, and I think that's really important. And you and I both know that when you work for agencies, you ask an agency what's different, and it's immediately deer in the headlights for everybody, right? And it becomes, well, it's the people. It's like, the problem there is that agencies have 30 % turnover, right? And so the people that I'm hiring are going to be gone, right? So you've got to have a process or a thing that you're better at, right? Or IP.

Kerry Curran, RBMA (11:10.616)

Right, yeah.

Jim Nichols (11:25.786)

You know that that and the agencies, both the agencies that the major agencies that we've worked for are now trying to build their own platforms and IP because that's the only way you're going to keep a client, right? That's the only way you're going to add value. But to me, the other thing when I talk to CEOs, one of the things that I like to say, and this is not my original concept by any means, but are you a vitamin or are you oxygen? Right. And so if you're a vitamin for a customer, that's great. You make things better.

Kerry Curran, RBMA (11:26.264)

Yes. Right, right.

Jim Nichols (11:55.664)

That doesn't mean we can't sell that right but what if we could create a story where you are the oxygen that drives your customers businesses right so sales force in a way like most people hate sales force right but it's oxygen right there's nothing you can you can do and I would say most of the people that hate sales force just don't know how to use it right but regardless of …

Kerry Curran, RBMA (12:03.182)

I love that. Right.

Jim Nichols (12:17.692)

It's, you know, it's just like what Oracle has done for years, you know, that that kind of 10 out of the top 10 auto companies use Oracle. Well, I better, I better use Oracle, right? Cause everybody else does. We have to, we have to give what we do importance, right? And you don't do that with, have this feature and this feature and this feature. It's like, what is your vision? What is your, and you were able to articulate in our first conversation, like what was fundamentally different about the company you worked …

Kerry Curran, RBMA (12:27.865)

Right.

Jim Nichols (12:47.004)

… versus the other 92 that are out there. And that to me is what makes compelling marketing is what gets opportunities.

Kerry Curran, RBMA (12:56.442)

Well, thank you. A lot of the themes coming up for stronger marketing, stronger revenue -based marketing, is having that storytelling and that brand identity becoming the core of the brand, of the culture, and being innovative. Whether it's, I always think you're as a practitioner or even as the sales strategist, you need to be innovative about how you're going to sell, solve their business challenges. And sometimes it's bringing in something you've never done before.

I have a couple of examples where, you know, I don't believe it. should clarify. I don't believe in selling like vapor, but I do believe in selling the potential. And so there's definitely times where I'm like, look, we've never done A plus C for a client before, but I believe strongly in A and our capabilities in C. So I think that we can do this. Let's pitch that as the custom solution. And again, to your point of like, if you can demonstrate the potential in your passion for becoming an extension of that client's team and driving those business results, like that's what's going to get them excited is something new and …

Jim Nichols (14:20.324)

And you know, think different clients have different appetites for innovation, right? And so that's part of what you do. But at an agency, as an agency, you need to find clients that are aligned with your way of doing business, right? Like we see, you know, I don't remember the agency that did the subservient chicken. I don't know if you remember that from years and years ago, right? It was just weird and off the wall and everything else. And it worked for Burger King.

Kerry Curran, RBMA (14:43.79)

Yeah, I don't, but yeah.

Jim Nichols (14:47.952)

… right, because that was what they were looking for. They were looking for that, but it would not have worked for McDonald's, right? It's just not the way that they operate. It's not their brand assets and so forth and helping, helping brands create that kind of a focus, I think is just absolutely essential in what we do and making it clear that although we sell software, for instance, which is what mostly I work on, right? What we're really trying to do is solve a problem and that our team is there to solve the problem. We're not just trying to sell …

Kerry Curran, RBMA (14:53.262)

Right.

Jim Nichols (15:17.308)

It's not $99 software. Almost everything I work on is like ultra enterprise, ,000, $250 ,000 million plus software, right? You don't just give it to them, right? You're talking to them about what is your vision as a company? What is your dream? And how are you going to help them achieve their dream with it? And we can do that. But at the same time, it's like, again, one of the things that really, I really sparked to you, right, was …

Kerry Curran, RBMA (15:22.362)

Yeah.

Jim Nichols (15:46.492)

Ultimately though, a business is about opportunities and sales, right? And so we do not have the year that we used to have to develop like one TV commercial. That's when I started the business that we spent an entire year talking about one 32nd ad. How did we do it? There were like 11 of us at the agency talking about one ad, right? And we also made $3 million on the account, right? So the fees are compressed and everything else, but we need to understand what companies need …

Kerry Curran, RBMA (15:50.948)

Right.

Jim Nichols (16:16.784)

this very day and deliver that, right? And so I say, Stratocution about my business, because it's like, we're gonna spend two or three hours figuring out what we think our positioning is. At the end of that, we're gonna say, that's our positioning for now. And we're gonna start writing SDR emails and putting up banner ads and all that. And we're gonna try it. And if the market salutes, then we're gonna keep doing it. And if not, then we're gonna adjust it a little, right? Because fundamentally, we're probably in the right area, but we may not have found …

Kerry Curran, RBMA (16:19.224)

Yeah. Right.

Jim Nichols (16:46.524)

perfect words, right? But …

Kerry Curran, RBMA (16:48.122)

Right. Well, that's the concept of testing and failing fast and having that kind of robust framework for learning. So I love that. I think to the, you know, my framework that I'm operating off of is couldn't be more high level, but it's like they have to have heard of you and they have to like you, right? And like, you know, especially for B2B because when you see the stats that on, you know, not only 5 % of your target audience, is in market at any time, especially to your point of enterprise or agency contracts, you're going to have the sales cycle is three to five years, right? Cause they have to have heard of you. Then they have to have a favorable opinion of you in relation to you having the solutions that they need. You can do something for them to the point of saving them time, now, solving their problem. And then of course …

Jim Nichols (17:26.379)

Enormous!

Kerry Curran, RBMA (17:44.378)

… pricing and other aspects to it, but you need those first two to be always on, you know, trying to get the attention so that when they do hit that 5 % of the time or the, you know, the 5 % of the audience hits that moment when they're ready to buy, they already like you. You're, you already have your foot in the door and it's not your BDR being their first point of contact with the brand.

Jim Nichols (18:10.148)

Yes. Yes.

Kerry Curran, RBMA (18:11.16)

And that's where I see a lot of the B2B companies missing. So that's why I love your approach.

Jim Nichols (18:18.104)

Yeah, you know, to me it's because we do a lot of times think like we give an SDR the task of reaching a CMO like it ain't going to happen, right? Unless companies are very, very small, it's just not going to happen. And so how do you demonstrate that what you're doing is important and different from other people? I think the marketing has to be different as well, right? And the years ago when I worked at value click, which became Converse and which became Epsilon, which is now part of publicist, …

Kerry Curran, RBMA (18:45.432)

Yeah.

Jim Nichols (18:47.356)

We had a program when we launched our new positioning where the sales team needed to answer the phone and take a meeting. That's what we needed them to do, right? And they were agency buyers and it was IO based media, right? So four week contracts. We're not trying to sign people up per year. So the program that the team developed was called Answer the Call. We actually sent 10 ,000 burner phones to 10 ,000 people in the advertising agency business. And we did things like …

Kerry Curran, RBMA (19:01.336)

Yeah. Yep. Love this.

Jim Nichols (19:16.092)

We contacted the mail rooms at large agencies and said, we're going to send a box to you with a gift card so that you will open the box and inside where 100 of those interoffice envelopes with the signatures on them. You remember those with the string and all that? And they would walk those around on Tuesday morning and put them on people's chairs. So this hits your chair and you open it up and it said, sometime in the next 36 hours, this phone is going to ring. And if it rings.

Kerry Curran, RBMA (19:29.176)

Yeah, yep, absolutely, yeah.

Jim Nichols (19:42.524)

you get the chance to get either a $100 gift card or a trip to the Bahamas or something. I can't remember. We had 94 % of the phone calls answered right out of 10 ,000. So we booked 5600 in-person meetings because in order to get your card you had to take the meeting. We had to bring it to you. We wouldn't mail them right. And so what do we do? We got people to answer the call and take a meeting. To me that's …

Kerry Curran, RBMA (19:50.918)

Amazing. Yeah.

Jim Nichols (20:07.964)

perfect marketing because what sales told us was we need people to call and take a meeting. It's like, well, here's how we're to do that. It was an expensive program with 5 ,600 meetings and something like, I don't know, $29 million in contracts. On a million dollar investment, we spent a lot of money on phones, but 29, our ROAs are not …

Kerry Curran, RBMA (20:12.558)

Yeah. Yeah. Well, and you bring up a good point too. That's an incredible ROAs. And so it's not expensive, right? It's the perspective of how you're looking at it. You made an investment and it had an extraordinary return. So it's, you know, I think that's part of it.

Jim Nichols (20:41.884)

Well that's it and you have to have it. And it's all about the execution then to read right because what made it work was we integrated FedEx with Salesforce so that when the FedEx package was delivered there was a note in an appointment was set in Salesforce call this number in four hours right and so it had time to get to the person and all those kind of things and then we had to have the salespeople already for 36 hours to just be working phones right so …

Kerry Curran, RBMA (20:59.352)

Yes, yep.

Jim Nichols (21:11.76)

… huge coordination and it requires trust and I think a key part of a marketer's role is to make that sales and marketing relationship work. Everybody has an interest in it but ultimately we have to be the ones that make it work. Right. I don't know. Maybe you would disagree with that but like I want sellers focused on selling. Right. We're relationship oriented people. We know how to work that right. So we need to have great relationships with sales so I can say to spend 36 hours making phone calls. It's gonna be worth it. And they trust me.

Kerry Curran, RBMA (21:43.736)

Right, right. Well, and I think too, I do agree with that. And the trust also comes into the proof, right? So if you're helping them with that narrative, they can't, you they know that this is what we're going to say when we answer, when they answer the phone or these are the marketing team has already put together the narrative of the key attributes, the differentiators, how we're going to help their audience. So all they have to do is be the conduit and the relationship builder.

But they don't have to come up with the consistent narrative that's going to demonstrate how we're better.

Jim Nichols (22:20.516)

Right. And I'm sure you've worked in organizations just like I have where there's no time spent on training salespeople. Right. And this is again when you get the super seller like you've got a superstar CEO who can sell the product. So they hire three expensive SaaS sellers to come in. Right. But there's no training. It's just like there's your phone. Right. Like you can't do that. Yeah exactly. Call. Yeah. Everybody in your Rolodex. OK. Well that's morning. And then what do you do after that? And what is the story you tell?

Kerry Curran, RBMA (22:38.83)

Yeah. Go call everyone you used to know. Yeah. Right.

Jim Nichols (22:49.796)

An example I would give is I remember sitting in a pitch once where a product company I work for had great international credentials, but they were selling to AT&T, which by law cannot compete outside of its markets. So the fact that we are really good at making payments in China is completely useless to them, right? And it shows how clueless we are that we don't know that they're by law. Now, those kinds of moments like marketing can really equip sales in a big way to do those things.

Kerry Curran, RBMA (23:08.228)

Right, right.

Jim Nichols (23:19.58)

And it's why I think the market should be measured based on opportunities created because sales decides whether there are opportunities. Right. This MQL stuff. I just think it's all a game. Right. Like I can give you 40 ,000 and who else tomorrow. They just won't be real. Right. But when it's an opportunity that means somebody else has decided that what I did had value. Right.

Kerry Curran, RBMA (23:40.546)

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Well, and you know, it brings back to life the key fundamentals of its relationship building and especially in B2B, it's going to take a long time. Like I think that's the expectation that B2B CEOs and executives need to understand. And obviously that changes with the type of product you're selling. You know, I just signed up for a QR code subscription for a year, which was $50, $60. Like, did that take a considered purchase? No. But, right. the last, but the, know, when, to your point, when it's a six figure subscription relationship or long relationship, it takes time. And so it could be three years and it's building that time, that relationship over time. And I just want to give a, you know, shout out to conferences as …

Jim Nichols (24:10.748)

That was a morning, right? Less.

Kerry Curran, RBMA (24:32.538)

conduit to relationship building. I think conferences are expensive and that takes a long time. They take a very long time to convert. But as you mentioned earlier, you and I met at a conference, you know, and there's a lot of, no, and there's a lot of conversations and relationships to be had at conferences that may not …

Jim Nichols (24:47.162)

Wouldn't have met any other way, right? Wouldn't have.

Kerry Curran, RBMA (24:58.68)

You know, I, in my experience, people have been like, where are the leads? Where are the contracts signed at that? And you're no, no, no. But now I'm, now I have these people in my network that I will continue to reach out to and continue to see at conferences. So yeah. Yeah.

Jim Nichols (25:10.94)

Well, let me ask you a question about that, right? Because I'm curious about this. This is a learning experience for me, right? It's so how do you then demonstrate to your organization that you're doing something right? And I don't mean that in a condescending way, right? But you and I both also know that you go to conference conferences and let's say the expo floor like the booths, right? And you wander around and all the people in the booth are talking to each other as …

Kerry Curran, RBMA (25:36.506)

Yeah.

Jim Nichols (25:40.636)

… thousands of people walk by right cuz everyone's a little afraid to talk to them or whatever or alternatively they go to the event and they talk to their friends. Right and so you just spend three thousand dollars to send a salesperson to New York for four days for some conference but they come back with nothing so how do you demonstrate the value of your approach and that long term outlook? I'm curious as to how you do that with ace …

Kerry Curran, RBMA (26:04.666)

Yeah. So, um, I mean, I think conference strategy could be its own, um, podcast episode, but absolutely you can't, you do need to show return. i think the expectation just shouldn't be that you're going to have a signed contract in a month. So it's, you know, these are the people I met with and, absolutely I've come home from conferences with a list of 20 people that I got to know.

Jim Nichols (26:11.042)

It could.

Kerry Curran, RBMA (26:30.97)

you know, 30 % or 40 % of them don't respond, even though you would like to break bread and drink Prosecco. But it's that now, now they're in my network. Now I'm on LinkedIn with them. Now I'm, I'm engaging with them. And now, you know, and I'll tell you with my podcast, a lot of my guests have been people I've met at conferences over the years.

Jim Nichols (26:52.7)

Sure.

Kerry Curran, RBMA (26:53.838)

Because it's where I get to know industry thought leaders. And when they are in the market for what I have, then there I am, we have the relationship. But I do think also to your point that you have to find the right personality. I've managed sales teams for many years and I have one former teammate who you send him to any conference, he comes home with a hundred contacts.

Because he's just that outgoing social guy. And so you need to make sure that you're balancing who you're sending with the people who are curious and are just good socializers. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Jim Nichols (27:31.706)

Hey audience, listen to that. That is so key, right? Not everybody can work a conference. Not everybody can deliver

Kerry Curran, RBMA (27:38.552)

Right. Right. And it's different, yeah. And then, you know, you just have to set the KPIs in advance, but just make sure they're not, we're going to get a return on this conference in the next three months. It might be a year and I've seen it be a year and it's just, it just takes …

Jim Nichols (27:54.246)

Sure, and the more expensive your software, the longer it's going to be, right? I completely agree with you. Like I did a podcast about a year and a half ago and they were like, not in the digital world, right? It was really more for entrepreneurs that were beyond Silicon Valley or whatnot. And he said, so what tools do you use in order to, you know, meet clients? Right. And I said, it's conferences and LinkedIn.

And he was like, well, wait a minute, like you're in digital. Why aren't you doing emails and this? And I thought you would have ideas about how to make X work and, and for me it was like, it's not how I went about business. There may be people who can do that. Right. But, I'm just kind of a genuine person. I can go to an event and turn it into money, but I'm not walking around as are you going, can you sign my contract? Right. It's really about listening, having ears that work and saying,

Kerry Curran, RBMA (28:44.622)

Right.

Jim Nichols (28:48.3)

Wow, you know, how's it going in your new job? Great. okay. Well, you know if you're having trouble with that I'm just saying I could help if if That would ever be useful to you and a lot of times people sort of put you off at least initially it was like hey not trying to pressure you I'm just telling you I do that for other companies and Sure enough like four or five days a week later you get a call It's like well, can you tell us how you would do that and it's like now you're rolling, right?

Kerry Curran, RBMA (29:12.686)

Yep. Right, right. It's the engagement. Yeah.

Jim Nichols (29:15.216)

So to me conferences and events each one does a different strategy you're going to ASC next week right affiliate somebody so am I. That is a peculiar event right but I think in an amazing way like some people think it's just chaos it's like it is and that's what's awesome about it right because you can find opportunities to connect with people everywhere right. Two of my best business contacts that I've gotten more business from from anybody else I've met waiting for the incredibly slow elevators in the Marriott …

Kerry Curran, RBMA (29:20.696)

… doing the AESC.

Yes, yes, yes.

Jim Nichols (29:45.072)

Right. And I didn't start by saying, do you want to sign a contract? was like, you know, where are you from? Right. Like, and you just get it rolling and get, have a genuine …

Kerry Curran, RBMA (29:55.608)

Yeah. Well, I'm going to end this with one successful conference story. And that is that at ASC last year, I was at one of the dinners and started talking to a woman and she said, what do you do? And I said, I worked for an agency. We specialize in this. And she goes, we're talking to some agencies right now about that. And I said, can we throw our hat in the ring? And literally, you know, within that one was a short sales cycle. I was lucky because she was in the market.

You know, that's the thing. was already in the market to be clear to anyone listening that thinks this happens all the time. But I always kind of pictured it as myself doing like a dive in the end zone as she was already ready to sign with someone else. said, Hey, what about us? And so if I hadn't been there, we wouldn't, you know, and hadn't struck up conversation with a random stranger who is now, you know, a friend. It wouldn't have happened. And I think that's, those are the, that doesn't happen at every conference, that it just reiterates the importance of in-person.

Jim Nichols (30:53.766)

That's where the opportunity is. right. you know, I'm basically an introvert, right? But I sort of make myself do a little bit more, right? I'm not ever overwhelmed in my view, right? Like, but you push yourself a little bit because if you hadn't had that conversation, you wouldn't have had that opportunity, right? If you'd been talking to another employee at your agency, which most people do at events, right? You wouldn't have found that opportunity. So I completely agree with you.

Kerry Curran, RBMA (31:18.958)

Well, and if I hadn't been lucky enough to sit next to you at the Performance Marketing Association branch in Vegas, then we wouldn't be here today. So Jim, I'm grateful for meeting you and always good to jam with you. And hopefully we will have you on again and I get to see you in person in a week.

So Jim, tell me your number one recommendation for a new marketing leader and how they can build bridges with sales.

Jim Nichols

Think your most important relationship in the company is sales. So you've got to start building those connections immediately. You need to understand what their goals are, talk to them about what their key issues or challenges are, and explain how you can add value in helping them understand customers better and build the story that's going to help them.

Kerry Curran, RBMA

Great, thank you.

Jim Nichols

Awesome.

Here are the key recommendations for revenue growth from the podcast conversation with Jim Nichols:

1. Align Sales and Marketing: Sales and marketing need to work together to create a cohesive strategy that drives business growth. Marketing should support sales with a strong narrative and tools to help them communicate value effectively.

2. Build Trust Between Teams: Marketing leaders must earn the trust of the sales team by understanding their goals, challenges, and proving that marketing can drive real opportunities.

3. Focus on Customer Perspective: Instead of pushing internal perspectives, focus on understanding and communicating from the customer’s viewpoint. This approach will help in building more effective marketing messages that resonate.

4. Create Scalable and Repeatable Processes: Initial success in startups often relies on the CEO’s passion and vision, but for long-term growth, companies need scalable, repeatable marketing and sales processes.

5. Empathy and Relatability: Build empathy between sales and marketing by simplifying complex ideas (like technical concepts) into more relatable and understandable terms for non-experts.

6. Drive Opportunities, Not Just Awareness: Marketing’s success should be measured by the opportunities created rather than just brand awareness. The collaboration with sales must focus on producing leads and revenue.

7. Rapid Execution and Testing: Launch campaigns quickly, test them in the market, and be prepared to adjust based on feedback. Don’t wait too long to execute.

8. Relationship Building and Conferences: Conferences are an excellent way to build long-term relationships, even if immediate contracts aren’t signed. Building a strong network over time leads to opportunities.

9. Storytelling and Value Proposition: When pitching to clients, shift the focus away from talking about the company and its features. Instead, focus on how your product or service solves the client’s specific challenges.

10. Invest in Innovative Solutions: Sometimes, it’s important to pitch innovative, custom solutions that haven’t been done before but show potential, as clients often value new approaches that solve their unique business problems.

These strategies emphasize the importance of aligning efforts, empathizing with the customer, and building sustainable processes for long-term revenue growth.