In this episode of Revenue Boost: A Marketing Podcast, host Kerry Curran sits down with Danielle Wiley, CEO and founder of Sway Group, to explore the evolution of influencer marketing from its PR roots to a powerful revenue driver. Learn how influencer strategies can move beyond awareness and reach, driving real results for your business. Danielle shares her insights on building effective creator campaigns, measuring success, and how even smaller brands can leverage local influencers to achieve national success. If you're an executive looking to grow revenue, this episode is packed with actionable advice you can't afford to miss!

Podcast transcript

Kerry Curran, RBMA (00:00.554)

And welcome Danielle, please introduce yourself and tell us a bit about your background and Sway.

Danielle Wiley (00:03.319)

I am Danielle Wiley. I am the CEO and founder of Sway Group. I founded it 13 years ago following a long career in both interactive and PR. Started doing influencer work over 20 years ago and was at Edelman and seeing it grow and also seeing just how messy and complicated it was and really just kind Swing Group was kind of born from my own frustration of wanting to pick up the phone and just say to someone, like, here's what I want, here's my budget, make it happen, thank you, goodbye. And there was no one that could, there were a few folks kind of saying that they could do that, but no one doing it well. And so I eventually got frustrated enough that I jumped off and did it on my own.

Kerry Curran, RBMA (00:59.316)

Well, the perfect way to get started, right? You have a problem that needs to be solved. So, no, great. And so you've seen the industry evolve and it continues to evolve. So talk a bit kind of how you've seen that evolution over time starting more as a PR strategy.

Danielle Wiley (01:19.692)

Yeah, so it really did start, I mean, not only did my career with Influencer start in PR, but really Influencer as a whole started in PR. Initially, Influencers, and back then they were really just called mom bloggers, but they were treated like journalists, and we would send them samples of products, and they would be psyched to receive products, and they would write about it, and it was all very, very easy. And then, … 

Kerry Curran, RBMA (01:38.277)

Yeah.

Danielle Wiley (01:49.612)

… you know, everyone kind of came to the realization that, you know what, for the most part, influencers aren't journalists. They're kind of more like spokespeople. And if you actually pay them as spokespeople, you can share your key messages with them and let them know what your goals are. And they can actually do some really great sponsored content for you. And it's a much different type of relationship, but that's when things kind of really gelled and really … 

Kerry Curran, RBMA (01:57.908)

Yeah.

Danielle Wiley (02:17.064)

… and so that's how it all started. And of course, since then, so much has changed. I mean, technology has changed tremendously. The number of platforms has grown exponentially. And then I think there's also been this influencer marketing kind of really started off very much at the top of the funnel, all about reach and awareness. And I would argue that that is still where it is at its strongest, but because D2C is so huge now because we do have the ability to measure conversion in a way that we never did, there's definitely this desire to move influencers further down the funnel. While it's possible, it's not possible in every program, it's not possible with every influencer, and it's tricky.

Kerry Curran, RBMA (03:03.71)

Right, no, I definitely agree with you. I always think about my focus group of how much I rely on influencers, whether it's more from a content perspective or the affiliate influencers, affiliate-based influencers that really inform my knowledge and my shopping behavior. Sometimes a little bit too much.

But yeah, and I think when we did some original research last year, we found that influencers and social platforms were the top source of inspiration for customers or just shoppers looking for what to buy, whether they're in the market or passively just becoming in the market. So we've definitely seen that. So talk a bit about kind of how you approach influencer strategies for your clients and kind of what you look at to make sure you're making the right decision. 

Danielle Wiley (04:08.91) 

Yeah, we ask a lot of questions. Every program that we do starts off with a strategic brief that is incredibly comprehensive. And we really use this as a blueprint for the whole program. So it's very important. And through 13 years of trial and error and just seeing everything that can happen, we kind of err on the side of too much information.

So what don't you want people to say? What do you want your creators to say? Listing out key messages, showing examples of content that have the same vibe that you're going for, looking at recruitment. Who do you want to pull in for this campaign? Even kind of higher up than that is what's your key KPI?

Kerry Curran, RBMA (04:50.492)

Right. Yeah.

Danielle Wiley (05:05.012)

Is this just about awareness and reach? Are you actually trying to drive conversions? Do we need to get people to click over to your site and eventually buy something or download something? The size of influencer we use, the platforms we choose to use, all of that, all ladder up to that KPI.

Kerry Curran, RBMA (05:25.268)

Yeah, and I think that's so important. I love how you do have such a comprehensive strategic approach because we're hearing a lot about agencies today just saying, okay, we are influencers now. We partner with a tech platform, so now we have this offering or we're a PR firm and we realize we need to add this. So it's important, I think, as you're pointing out that there's so many layers and specifics to it that you can't just go in one day and turn on an influencer program. And you talked about, you build the relationships with the influencers over time as well.

Danielle Wiley (06:04.686)

Yeah, I mean, I think if you talk to anyone doing influencer marketing, really one of the hardest pieces of it is the discovery, is finding those influencers. So finding that list, reaching out, getting them to respond. You know, when we're really lucky, we have a network of 50 ,000 creators. So for the vast majority of our programs, we are able to just send a recruitment out to our network and folks apply and we can just pick the ones who are the best fit.

That's ideal and it's such a luxury to have that pool of creators at our disposal. But there are always going to be programs that need someone who's outside of that box. We had a client last year who wanted professional bowlers. We've had clients, you know, we're working with a client now in the Pacific Northwest and they want people who live in certain communities to talk about this lumber company and some of the … 

Kerry Curran, RBMA (06:50.814)

Wow.

Danielle Wiley (07:02.606)

… environmental issues and how they're tackling them. That's very, very specific. to think, you you're not going to find that in our network of 50 ,000. So we have to go out and find, you know, hand find them. And even for us, we've been in the industry for 13 years, you Google us, we're legit. Even for us, the percentage of creators who get back to us, it's very, very small.

Kerry Curran, RBMA (07:13.662)

Right.

Danielle Wiley (07:28.578)

Doing that discovery is incredibly difficult. So it's very hard for folks to just jump in and do …

Kerry Curran, RBMA (07:35.602)

Yeah. Well, that client example just shows how vast the opportunities are for influencer marketing, that it can be used for so many different types of businesses and awareness driving as well. So I love that. I hope you found your logger influencers in the Pacific Northwest.

Danielle Wiley (07:56.672)

We did, we did. They're creating their content now. The hyper local stuff is really exciting. We're working with a very, very popular pizza restaurant in Chicago and doing that lumber campaign. We've done store openings and zip codes with very small populations. It's, I don't know, maybe it's not the sexiest side of influencer marketing, but I feel like because of the size and scope of our network and because we have so many processes in place, we're uniquely positioned to be able to tackle those types of programs. just kind of from a, I like the fact that smaller, more local companies can now dip their toes into influencer marketing. I think it has felt like something that just those big companies can do, but in reality it's incredibly effective content and there's no reason that companies of all sizes can't be taking advantage of … 

Kerry Curran, RBMA (08:46.303)

Mm-hmm. Yes.

Right. Well, and it's, I love that too, because to your point, like it's not just a media or a strategy for the big budgets. Like there are ways to do it, and especially at the local level. What's interesting too is that so many shoppers report that they are, make decisions based on recommendations and you build, I know I've done this too, you build this relationship with your influencer. Okay, it's really one way. Like I think Mindy Kaling and I are best friends because I follow her on Instagram. But the point is that you build this affinity for the creators and influencers so that their followers, you know, trust their recommendations. They feel like they know them and they're getting something personal. But then they also have things in common or …

Danielle Wiley (09:24.222)

Ha ha.

Kerry Curran, RBMA (09:44.254)

… things they admire about them that is why they follow them. And so with that, yeah, and I know you've some of the best practices around creator content that often don't always align is letting the creators create. So talk a bit about how you kind of pass over the important details, but really give them the reins.

Danielle Wiley (09:48.674)

Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah, so we, I mean, I almost think of it like a creative writing class. So we share what the key messages are. We always share what the client is hoping to achieve because creators are business people just like anyone else. And it's really important for them to understand, like, what's the end goal here? What am I being hired to actually do? And then we will give prompts that are kind of, like I said, like a creative writing class. 

So it's say exactly this and using all of these words. It's not a script. It's some kind of prompt that lets them run with the story and talk about that product in a way that feels organic to who they are and fits in with it. I give the example sometimes, like we work with like training pants diapers, you can just say like, tell us like your funniest potty training story every single parenting influencer is going to have a completely different take on that. It's going to absolutely feel organic to them. And that's a great prompt because it leads to humor and something that's personal and it ties it in with stuff that they've probably been talking about already. So that's what we try to do. And you're always going to run into clients who want to be a bit more prescriptive. 

There's a lot of back and forth that does. And that's one of the nice things for creators who do work through an agency like us is we kind of take on some of those more difficult discussions. I'm sure we sometimes do have to request some edits and tweaks, but often they're a lot less than what was requested initially by the client.

Kerry Curran, RBMA (11:59.055)

Yeah, no, definitely. seen that. I've seen that process when the brand tries to control it and, but you know, it's the creators, the influencers, they know what resonates with their audience. And so you need to let the creators create and, yeah, it's, feel like that's one of the biggest challenges for creators and brands to work together. It's kind of giving up that creative control, but, but it works.

Danielle Wiley (12:25.334)

Yeah, absolutely.

Kerry Curran, RBMA (12:27.199)

Yeah. And so you've talked a bit about the kind of measurement or goals of different creator campaigns. What are some of the measurements that you put into place to help kind of just consider the success of a campaign?

Danielle Wiley (12:43.79)

Yeah, we look, I mean, we use a platform. So we use Creator IQ, we get our metrics, we pull them in directly from the APIs of the various platforms. So it's first party data, which is terrific. And we have access to a lot of really interesting metrics. Of course, there's all the typical ones that we've all heard of. So impressions and engagements and clicks.

Some of the more interesting ones, it depends on the type of campaign. If we're doing a campaign for a food product and a creator is sharing a recipe, I'm looking to see how many saves we got because that indicates that consumers are saving that recipe to make it another time and they're gonna pull it up and they're gonna see that brand name and they're gonna buy that specific brand of cherry tomato or cheese or whatever it might be really, I think where the industry is going, looking at all of the updates that Metta is making, it's all about shareable content. They've been totally expanding on their notes capability. Any piece of content that is getting shared around, that's incredible, it's a terrific metric. And I think it's one of the most important ones out there, especially today.

Kerry Curran, RBMA (14:09.054)

Yeah, well, I mean, it ties to the data points of people who share what they like, and people will be responsive to the recommendations that their friends or influencers are making. that makes a lot of sense. And it does tie back to business metrics. it makes for a solid measurement to the campaign success.

Danielle Wiley (14:35.862)

Yeah. And then we also, one other thing that we've been doing really in the past few years, we work with an outside research company to do brand lift studies, which is great. you can, I mean, they're done like with all of the scientific rigor of an actual survey and there's a control group and an exposed group and … 

Kerry Curran, RBMA (14:46.858)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Danielle Wiley (15:00.782)

… the partner that we use kind of gamifies the survey. you can get some of, know, Gen Z is more likely to participate because there's a lot of swiping and it's kind of fun. But that's really, really great to be able to show. Like that's kind of, that's a difficult metric to show that there's been some kind of brand lift or change in sentiment. So it's terrific to be able to have that data.

Kerry Curran, RBMA (15:25.559)

No, I love that aspect of your measurement strategy because we keep looking at awareness building initiatives and kind of how to, you know, your customers have to like you, know you, and then they have to like you. And it's some of those investments to get the message and unique attributes out there are a bit squishier and less of a direct response. Having that brand, Lyft study included, sounds like a real measurable outcome for the campaigns. Great. And so tell us a bit about some of the more exciting or unique, you mentioned the logging, any other fun stories from your partnerships?

Danielle Wiley (16:00.032)

Yeah. Yeah, that's great.

I mean, they're one of my favorite stories. We were doing a program a couple of years ago, for power tools and we had to use contractors who are on Instagram. And I, I will say that I think now, I think that was actually pre COVID. So now like five years later, there's lots of contractors on Instagram and that's kind of a thing and it's growing back then it wasn't. and we found, we found this contractor who happened … 

Kerry Curran, RBMA (16:35.678)

Yep, yep.

Danielle Wiley (16:43.628)

… to have an Instagram and was a great fit. And we always ask our creators to send us a draft of their caption for their video ahead of time so we can make sure everything is spelled correctly and just make sure we're all aligned. And the contractor sent it to us. He wrote it on a legal pad and sent us a photo of it. And it was the cutest. It's still one of my favorites.

Kerry Curran, RBMA (17:06.602)

I love that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, he could use that as the creative image as well, instead of typing it in. No, that's great. And so any other, like any watch outs for clients or brands that are, you know, working or looking to get into influencer and creator strategies?

Danielle Wiley (17:11.807)

I mean, at the end of the day, it worked, but not what we were used to getting, that's for.

Yeah, I mean, I think it's important to, if you're going to be using an agency just to vet them really, really well, make sure there are so many pieces and parts to influence our marketing. We have people who specialize in all of these areas. The person who's amazing at account management is likely not the best person to be QA and content or be doing the metrics or be negotiating with the creators. Those are all like very specific jobs. So I … 

Kerry Curran, RBMA (17:44.452)

Yeah.

Danielle Wiley (18:05.696)

… really vet the staff of the agency, make sure there are, it's not just one person using a platform, make sure that there are experts along every single step in the process. And then I think also try to vet their technology, find out what platform that they're using, how long has that platform existed? How is it getting its data? There are still so many platforms out there who are scraping data instead of using API access, which is super inaccurate and it's kind of crazy to me. And then I think just make sure that all of the technology kind of stacks up and that you have everything you need. We've added a platform a few months ago and they didn't have the ability to roll up paid amplification, like the boosting. So.

Kerry Curran, RBMA (18:35.21)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Danielle Wiley (18:57.386)

And with the platform that we use, we're able to, our creators authorize us to run paid on their behalf. And so we can see all of the content for a particular campaign from all of the different creators, all in one spot and be able to run that paid in a way that maximizes like this one's working great for clicks. And this piece of content is working great for reach. And we can kind of pull all those levers. 

If you don't have paid amplification integration, you're going into each creator's account one at a time. They have to authorize you separately and it's just, it's kind of messy. It's not ideal. It's such a weird peculiar peculiarity, but I think it's a really good example of how this tech, not like the technology that your agency's using might not be doing everything that it can be doing, which is going to end up costing the brand more money at the end of the day.

Kerry Curran, RBMA (19:49.64)

Yeah, no, that's it. That's really great advice and lots of good overall. Danielle, it's clear why you and Soy Group have been so successful because you are an OG in the space and have so much knowledge. So I really appreciate your time today. Thank you for joining us and you want to give a shout out for your own podcast as … 

Danielle Wiley (20:12.716)

Yeah, we have a podcast. It's on a little bit of a summer break, but hopefully we'll be back by the time this comes out. It's called The Art of Sway, and you can find it on any of your favorite podcast platforms.

Kerry Curran, RBMA 

So Danielle, what's a quick tip for brands that are interested in getting involved in creator influencer strategies?

Danielle Wiley 

I think the easiest first way to start is to find someone who's already a fan of your brand and reach out to them and get started that way. And then at least you can see how well it's going to work. You can kind of get a sense of how it feels and decide if this is something that you want to invest more time and budget towards.

Kerry Curran, RBMA 

Thank you!

Danielle Wiley

Sure thing.