Marketing operations is the backbone of revenue generation, bridging the gap between marketing efforts and sales outcomes. By streamlining processes, prioritizing key conversion points, and eliminating inefficiencies, you create a seamless journey that maximizes every lead's potential to convert into revenue. Operational excellence ensures that every campaign contributes directly to measurable business growth with greater efficiency and meaningful impact. - Sarah Lane-Hawn, Marketing Ops Expert

Welcome to Revenue Boost: A Marketing Podcast, where business leaders turn for actionable strategies to fuel growth and drive results. I’m your host, Kerry Curran. With over 20 years of marketing agency experience driving client business growth I now run RBMA: Revenue Based Marketing Advisors where we help businesses like yours effectively scale revenue growth. Visit RevenueBasedMarketing.com or connect with me on LinkedIn!

In Today’s episode, Maximizing Marketing Impact: From Funnel Conversion to Revenue Attribution, I am joined by the brilliant Sarah Lane-Hawn, a senior marketing operations consultant and mathematician turned marketing strategist. Sarah shares her journey from creating blog content to leading marketing operations at startups and scale-ups, bringing her unique perspective to the challenges and opportunities in B2B marketing.

We discuss actionable strategies to optimize funnel conversion, eliminate inefficiencies, and implement reliable revenue attribution models. Sarah also introduces her innovative “Goldilocks Model” for revenue attribution—a practical, cost-effective solution for startups and scale-ups to measure and maximize marketing’s impact.

If your marketing team is struggling to demonstrate revenue impact, this episode is for you, lets go!

Podcast transcript

 

 

Kerry Curran, RBMA (00:01.45)

So welcome, Sarah, please introduce yourself and tell us a bit about your background and expertise.

 

Sarah Lane-Hawn (00:07.662)

Sure. So I'm Sarah Lane Hawn. I'm a marketing ops senior consultant and I started my consultancy just this year. So for the last decade-plus, I've been working in-house at multiple startups and scale-ups assisting both in marketing teams and then leaning over the last five years into marketing operations leadership at the executive level.

So that's where I come from. Before that degree was in mathematics. So it's always a fun fact to drop that I am a mathematician who loves marketing. And I'm not alone in that. I feel like I've met so many people who actually have that cross of creative and analytical genius that are in our marketing space.

 

Kerry Curran, RBMA (00:49.77)

Yeah.

 

Kerry Curran, RBMA (00:58.408)

Well, it's perfect. I mean, there's so much need for data. So we need more mathematicians to help us measure everything. But great you know, Sarah and I met at HubSpot's inbound conference and I loved hearing about her journey with marketing operations, but also the more, you know, we're digging into just all aspects of driving revenue through marketing, awareness campaigns, and engagement, all the way to conversion. Also, the challenges, especially in the B2B space, when it's a very considered purchase, have a much longer buying cycle, and a much more complex buying journey. Depending on the stats you read, it's either you or your buyer may only be in the market 5 % of the time. 

So how do you get their attention? And that other 95 % of the time, which could be a three-year cycle, depending again on the investment that your product or service requires. So, you know, I think about especially if it's something that is a contract that you only have one of, that's going to take a lot longer than a B2B tech that's an add-on. So it only reiterates the importance of having really strong marketing operations to measure everything. So Sarah, talk about kind of how you kind of take this approach and make sure that we're able to measure the impact and why it's so you're so passionate about it.

 

Sarah Lane-Hawn (02:38.966)

Yeah, so from a B2B perspective, I feel like I landed in this place very organically and love it because of the complexity you have to consider not only the buyer but the company the economic position the quarter that it is and if there's budget right there's so much that goes in marketing into a B2B sales cycle …

 

Kerry Curran, RBMA (02:47.561)

Yeah. Mm-hmm.

 

Sarah Lane-Hawn (03:06.39)

… and so yeah, to your point, like when I very first started in marketing, I was in charge of blog content. And so I was putting out content into the world in a place where there was never going to be somebody who clicked through and that's what they met the purchase. Right? Like it wasn't gonna happen. and that's fine. I understood vaguely, you know, 12 years plus ago …

 

Kerry Curran, RBMA (03:24.228)

Purchase right away. Yeah.

 

Sarah Lane-Hawn (03:35.626)

… that that wasn't the purpose it was for trust and authority and right awareness. But what was important to me then was to understand where I could have the most impact, right? These things were necessary, they were best practices to have out into the world. But then what happened after that? And so following through that sales cycle from the buyer's perspective, and from our company perspective, …

 

Kerry Curran, RBMA (03:39.026)

Yeah. Mm-hmm.

 

Sarah Lane-Hawn (04:04.878)

… allowed me to start to see like, where are there areas of inefficiency? And I think for me, that's the biggest part of operations. And what we do is fix inefficiencies. Because if you're only getting that chance 5 % of the time, it better work, right? Like, when they do come around, the first brand already has to have been there. So they come around. And then when they do, there shouldn't be anything …

 

Kerry Curran, RBMA (04:20.426)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

 

Sarah Lane-Hawn (04:33.408)

… that interrupts that's avoidable. And so for me, it's very much finding what are all of those avoidable things that we've run into where it's, you know, very non-personalized, personalized automated emails that rub people the wrong way or forums that are asking you to fill out information you've already given three times the brand like all of these pieces and parts that could make for a subpart brand experience.

 

Kerry Curran, RBMA (04:33.716)

Right.

 

Sarah Lane-Hawn (05:02.028)

Becomes important and B2B because it's not a $5 thing that I'm willing to go through the pain because it's cheap. got another 10 % off coupon. I'm going, you know, take an extra five minutes and it's fine. No, like this is a huge decision. So yeah, that's that's a huge part of where I come from on this.

 

Kerry Curran, RBMA (05:23.444)

Well, and it's a huge decision to your point, but also marketing budgets, we all know have gotten tighter and tighter. And I keep, you know, hearing B2B companies saying, well, I'm just going to hire more salespeople. But you're like, which always, you know, makes me cringe. Because of your point, they have to have heard of you, they have to have trust and they have to engage with you and just get them into the pipeline. That's not the end of the story. So.

I know you talk a lot about optimizing the external and internal journey and being part of a big part of the goal of your operation. So talk a bit about how you approach that and why that's so important.

 

Sarah Lane-Hawn (06:05.878)

Yeah, for me, being a numbers person, right? One of my first experiments in operations was to look at conversion rates from different things, from individual emails and how many people clicked through, but also from our marketing-qualified leads and how many of those went to the next step of being sales-qualified. And when I looked at those rates,

 

Kerry Curran, RBMA (06:20.201)

Mm-hmm.

 

Sarah Lane-Hawn (06:35.734)

I very quickly realized that instead of putting my effort and intention as one person, right, into can I get a couple more clicks on an email versus can I get a couple more conversion points up between our marketing qualification and sales qualification process, where I chose to put that emphasis would result in more revenue down …

 

Kerry Curran, RBMA (06:42.376)

Mm-hmm…

 

Sarah Lane-Hawn (07:04.994)

… the line. And so for me, it became a necessity out of limited headcount, which is exactly what you're talking about. And being able to say I only have so much time in a day, where should I be focusing? Should I be doing more? Should I be putting my time into testing and making this actual campaign a little bit better at a time? Or do I need to focus operationally on how we qualify how we lead a handoff? And

So until those things are lovely, those down-funnel conversion points are always going to end up making the biggest impact on your revenue because they're closer to affecting revenue. Right. So, that's how it started, just kind of having that realization. And so now with all of my clients, that's the number one thing that I push is like, we need to know exactly what our conversion rate is from step to step in the funnel.

 

Kerry Curran, RBMA (07:38.89)

Mm-hmm …

 

Sarah Lane-Hawn (08:05.39)

We need to use that side by side with quantity to play with those levers of like, it's great that we want more, but do we want more because our quality is really low and we're just running through them? Or do we want more because we've really maximized that we know that if we get them here, we've got it? And so we can amp up the quantity and it turns into really good revenue. That's, yeah, a primary need for every …

 

Kerry Curran, RBMA (08:27.603)

Yeah. Mm-hmm.

 

Sarah Lane-Hawn (08:34.904)

… B2B companies, I think, can do better when it comes to their actual conversion analysis.

 

Kerry Curran, RBMA (08:39.73)

Yeah, definitely. Cause again, the more you can kind of fine tune and optimize the more quickly, ideally you can get them through that whole funnel or process to become your paying customers. So it's, there's a, there's a timing factor that you want to improve as well. So that's great. So I know you talked about, kind of following the people and kind of knowing where they're coming in and how do you measure that? How do you set brands up to be able to kind of really get those data points?

 

Sarah Lane-Hawn (09:10.08)

Yeah, it depends on what we're trying to measure. And I think one of the main failures that a lot of companies have is that they know they want to measure things. They know that that's smart and we should do data back to marketing and sales but we don't know exactly what we want to measure yet. And we don't know then how we're going to measure it even if we figure out what we want to measure. And so for me, it always starts …

 

Kerry Curran, RBMA (09:30.462)

Yeah. Right.

 

Sarah Lane-Hawn (09:38.35)

… with the basics, like we need to be able to tag when somebody converts to milestones and have a clear definition of them. We need to look at the quantity of that and the conversion rate to the next stage of the marketing and sales funnel, right? And then once we have that layer, we can get into it's a lot easier to get channel-specific metrics and know if something's working from just an initiative perspective, we put it out in the world.

 

Kerry Curran, RBMA (10:06.922)

Mm-hmm.

 

Sarah Lane-Hawn (10:08.362)

Is it being engaged with? Fantastic. We can get those channel-by-channel metrics pretty, pretty well. I think where things get sticky is what questions executive leadership wants to ask for the whole of the go-to-market org. And those conversations are sometimes really fun especially at the C suite. I feel like talking with CEOs, they do know what they want. They do know the type of business problem they're trying to answer. And they can articulate it. And then you have to interpret it. And you have to change it to the available data. Here's when it's available. Here are the five sub questions underneath your question that we have to now root out.

 

Kerry Curran, RBMA (11:05.716)

Yet.

 

Sarah Lane-Hawn (11:06.294)

and figure out what matters most to us. But you can usually get there. But I think coming for me, and this is why I work with startups and scale-ups too, is because like, if I can work directly with that executive team, we can get to what is going to be a business meaningful metric versus working within our marketing bubble, creating a ton of KPIs that we think are helpful because we are for our decision-making, but it doesn't inform the business at large on what needs to be done. So that could be everything from setting up true revenue attribution where you're saying this is how much came in this quarter, put it in the divided into buckets of our primary channels …

 

Kerry Curran, RBMA (11:34.569)

Right. Yeah.

 

Sarah Lane-Hawn (12:00.462)

… that could be helpful to the executive team, but not necessarily something that is a marketer. I'm going to use that knowledge as much. But it also may be something as simple as, like, we're trying to optimize our event budget because we're having great success and we know we're having great success, but how far can we push it and continue to see the return this way?

 

Kerry Curran, RBMA (12:06.697)

Mm-hmm. Right.

 

Sarah Lane-Hawn (12:29.28)

and having to unpack like, what does that mean? How long of a tail are we going to put on this report to say that a year from now, we're still going to give it some credit because they did attend a year ago? Or does it decay over time based on how much influence there is? So not necessarily specific reports, but it, you know, having that theory behind it of …

 

Kerry Curran, RBMA (12:44.286)

Yeah.

 

Sarah Lane-Hawn (12:56.724)

… what are we actually trying to answer and what are we going to do with this or are we just making really pretty charts?

 

Kerry Curran, RBMA (13:00.254)

Well, right. And I think to make sure that what you are tracking, you know, going back to what the CEO might want to see in the report, is that a vanity metric, or is that something that's driving the business? But I love the point you made about, you know, you can, like collecting enough information on the touch points that you can go back and apply or divide the revenue by channel so that, you know, it's all about having better data to make smarter decisions. You know, when do I invest more in, you know, paid media? Do I invest more in conferences? But I get, I get the kind of how long do you measure that lead and give effort to because to a point, especially in B2B, it could be a year before they're ready to convert, but that you've, I guess, as we're coming, all of the touch points and keeping them engaged is so important.

 

Sarah Lane-Hawn (14:01.079)

Yeah, absolutely.

 

Kerry Curran, RBMA (14:03.228)

And so one of the things I loved you talked about was identifying the friction points of like where they might drop off from the relationship, you know, and you lose that prospect. Talk about how you kind of identify that and how you help optimize to reduce that.

 

Sarah Lane-Hawn (14:23.852)

Yeah, I think there's a lot of ways. And I think from a marketing perspective, a lot of marketers, I think, are just really organically empathetic and they can put themselves in their customer's shoes easily. And so I think taking that kind of human-based approach is valuable and walking through the journeys, all of the possible kind of iterations to understand like, well,

 

Kerry Curran, RBMA (14:38.442)

you

 

Sarah Lane-Hawn (14:52.738)

the people who come through this way, like, this is difficult, you know, I had to look to figure out if I was fit when it should be obvious, right? I think from, you know, so for everything kind of in your tech space and digital marketing, like that, that value of just having a human perspective, and going with what feels

 

Kerry Curran, RBMA (15:03.39)

Right, yeah here.

 

Sarah Lane-Hawn (15:19.928)

targeted and easy and best. There's a lot of value to that even without metrics behind it, just good digital design. The other part of it is from a metrics perspective, I think comes into play a lot when you're looking at just page conversion rates, form conversion rates, and then timeline between steps. If we have people who seem interested.

 

Kerry Curran, RBMA (15:43.199)

Mm-hmm.

 

Sarah Lane-Hawn (15:48.29)

And then all of a sudden, they're not trying to figure out what happened during that timeframe. Another area where I see high friction is in business development. So when you're doing outbound or even responding to inbound leads, how much are you capturing and continuing a relationship? If the person's already...

 

Kerry Curran, RBMA (16:03.847)

Okay.

 

Sarah Lane-Hawn (16:15.306)

interested in the brand, they're already engaged to some degree. And now you're pivoting into a human-to-human relationship. Are we burning bridges? Are we turning people off from the brand based on how we're engaging with them? Do we sound tone-deaf? Because we should already know why they're interested in our brand because of how they've engaged with us. But because operational marketing isn't informing sales …

 

Kerry Curran, RBMA (16:37.064)

Mm-hmm. Right.

 

Sarah Lane-Hawn (16:44.512)

… of what the person was engaged with. Now sales sound like, you know, they just didn't care. When that's not always true, like it's just because they didn't have the data in a way that they could say, great, this person seems to fall into this category. This seems to be the right product fit. This seems to be the topics and pain points they're interested in. I'm going to take those assumptions and run with them. Instead of having to ask all of these discovery questions …

 

Kerry Curran, RBMA (17:01.235)

Right. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

 

Sarah Lane-Hawn (17:14.446)

… hold and sounds like we as a brand don't know. So there's a lot of veins in which a lot of that can be played, but some of it's as simple as opening click rate, you know, and response rate metrics. A lot of it doesn't need to be hyper-complex to understand what's working and what isn't. It's more taking the human experience element and

 

Kerry Curran, RBMA (17:43.496)

Yeah.

 

Sarah Lane-Hawn (17:44.12)

Comparing it then to what you have numbers on or where you have a gut feeling. I can't remember who said it And it's becoming more widely known but that like your gut instinct is data because it's built off of your years of experience and knowing things and seeing things work and not work and so using that gut data to say that this is what I think is wrong and Then you go numerically test it …

 

Kerry Curran, RBMA (18:01.95)

Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yep.

 

Sarah Lane-Hawn (18:10.594)

… you do an A-B split test, and you figure out if you were right or wrong. Like that's fine. But the numbers can come second. They don't always have to be the thing that tells us to take action. A lot of times we need to take action strategically, and intentionally, and then check ourselves to make sure we didn't make a faux pas.

 

Kerry Curran, RBMA (18:31.914)

Yeah, no, that's so smart and you bring up so many good points and I think it just reiterates the need for strong communication between marketing and sales as well and that it can't be siloed and to have that kind of tracking in place as well so that you can track what pages did they come from, what did they download or what did they click on in the email?

Having that kind of tracking set up, I love that. And I think too, it's training your, you have a BDR or SDR that's following up on those, like the training and the time it goes into to make sure they're using that data to connect and.

 

Sarah Lane-Hawn (19:02.638)

Mm-hmm Right.

 

Kerry Curran, RBMA (19:24.01)

the more personalization you can add to those conversations. And you said many times, that relationship building, I think is so important, especially for B2B.

 

Sarah Lane-Hawn (19:33.302)

right? Well, and that's the point of marketing operations, right is like, we're here to optimize for all of the things that can possibly be automated, or at least processes improved to be a minimal left so that people can take the time they need to do the things that only humans can do. And so for me, and like the bd space, I operationally am not going to

 

Kerry Curran, RBMA (19:41.288)

Yeah.

 

Sarah Lane-Hawn (20:03.052)

Being able to replace the human element of you doing research and getting to know this human and building an actual relationship and reaching out and uniquely creative ways like that is where I want your time. I want to be able to tell you not only what people have been looking at, but depending on the company, I might be able to narrow it down and say, this seems like this kind of persona fit for us.

 

Kerry Curran, RBMA (20:12.746)

Hmm.

 

Sarah Lane-Hawn (20:30.818)

This is probably their pain point. This is probably the information based on their company, which I think we're going to end up selling to them. This is like, I can give you basically a prediction of what I think is going to work and then have snippets already prepared. So you can go in and you're just like marketing saying these three things are already true. So I dropped those in. Here's one that it doesn't seem like we know yet.

 

Kerry Curran, RBMA (20:40.212)

Mm-hmm.

 

Sarah Lane-Hawn (20:59.726)

So I can either do something generic or I can go do research, right? But then the majority of the time is in the meaningful research and relational development and going deep, multiple layers in an org. And instead of having to go scroll through your HubSpot activity history and go, they're downloading some things and it looks like they attended a webinar and they clicked on one of our.

 

Kerry Curran, RBMA (21:13.353)

Yeah.

 

Sarah Lane-Hawn (21:27.72)

emails. So I guess they like us like they don't. Yeah, take away that guesswork and that effort of trying to interpret all of that information every time. And just go ahead and automate saying, Hey, if somebody is interested in these types of articles, they probably have this type of pain point.

 

Kerry Curran, RBMA (21:30.718)

And what did they fill out in that form? Let me go find the form like that. Yeah.

 

Sarah Lane-Hawn (21:51.126)

If these people are responding to these types of drip campaigns, it's because we've already identified that this is the type of product fit for them. Like go ahead where you can and make that, you know, assumption for your sales team. And then they can pivot from there when they need to, but it gets, it saves them so much time.

 

Kerry Curran, RBMA (22:14.716)

It does. Yeah. And it improves. Like I always talk about, want to shorten your sales cycle and improve your close rate. And that's all like all of this kind of adds into it. one of the biggest challenges I do think though, for, we talked a bit about this for, anyone in marketing or business development at the decision-maker level is like, there are so many tools out there for tracking. We were talking about this coming out of HubSpot like they're all amazing. And it's like, I wish I had.

 

Sarah Lane-Hawn (22:25.955)

Yeah.

 

Kerry Curran, RBMA (22:44.776)

this huge budget to apply all of them. I would be so smart and you know, I probably would just be in my sleep, it would generate leads for me. But just give us a high-level kind of advice on how you evaluate or choose the tools for your tech stack. Just a very high level.

 

Sarah Lane-Hawn (23:05.25)

Yeah, I mean, for me now, it's very different as a consultant, because usually I'm coming into an established tech stock. And we're trying to optimize it and just make the most out of something that we're committed to or play within the rules, right, and maybe tweak some things here and there. And that's very much very similar to like starting in your career, right, where you don't have any say so about budget, and you're just given the tools and you figured out. But I kind of like that.

 

Kerry Curran, RBMA (23:14.014)

Mm-hmm.

 

Sarah Lane-Hawn (23:34.712)

coming full circle for myself because I like having the constraints. And that makes me so much more creative and lean into figuring out how far can you take some of the software like, what's a great example of that, like the number of things that they released over the last year. If I had a huge tech stack, there's no way I would have leaned in as hard into some of these …

 

Kerry Curran, RBMA (23:36.862)

Yeah.

 

Sarah Lane-Hawn (24:03.95)

… of spot features going, well, I already have this didn't used to exist exists now. How else can I use this? Right? so I come up with a very stingy approach from, know, from my history. But even when I had really large marketing budgets, my goal was always, can we make sure that we have a true business need.

 

Kerry Curran, RBMA (24:07.624)

Yeah. Yep.

 

Sarah Lane-Hawn (24:31.712)

not a business wants people demanding that we should do this. But yeah, not a want. But do we need the functionality? Like is it going to serve our purpose today with our current resources? And like we mentioned you and I had a previous conversation like

 

Kerry Curran, RBMA (24:37.352)

Right. Not just the shiny object with bells and whistles, right? Yes.

 

Sarah Lane-Hawn (24:57.912)

Just because it's a great tool that could do wonderful things doesn't mean that you're at the right stage of a company to take advantage of it. And so it may need to sit on your wish list for another year or two until you have a headcount where you have somebody who half a day every day can be in the software and adopting it. So I try like most of my clients have a CRM and a marketing automation platform.

a calendaring tool of some sort, right? And then something that they use for outbound sequencing. That's kind of the core. And then anything beyond that needs to go through the filter of why we are using it. And is this a temporary need? Or is this something that we're scaling a go-to-market initiative around and building programs around using?

 

Kerry Curran, RBMA (25:31.156)

Mm-hmm, Yeah.

 

Sarah Lane-Hawn (25:57.986)

So that we understand if we have like dependency on something as a company, or if it's just an additive tool that could be great, but isn't necessarily going to be a make or break for the company.

 

Kerry Curran, RBMA (26:11.922)

Yeah. And I think too, just to reiterate the point you made is that you need to have the resource that can activate on the data or just, you know, use it. And there's training, there's some, depending on the complexity or the amount of data you're going to be getting like there might be change management for the adoption and the use of the data going forward or the use of the tool. So that needs to be …

 

Sarah Lane-Hawn (26:33.143)

Yeah.

 

Kerry Curran, RBMA (26:40.628)

… taken into consideration as well. And I find your advice there so valuable, especially as I'm like looking, like I said, looking at the tools coming my way, it's like, these are great, but, they will make me smarter, but will they make me smarter in a way that I can change my trajectory right now or is that more next year? So definitely appreciate your advice there, Sarah.

One last thing I want to kind of bring up is you talked about, you recently created an attribution platform. Tell us about this.

 

Sarah Lane-Hawn (27:15.212)

Yeah, so within HubSpot Pro, I started custom-building attribution models for a couple of clients and I had done this in-house at a couple of places. And I think I got to a point where I really felt like I nailed down what I had been looking for in regards to true revenue attribution for like an executive or a board where they literally just need the snapshot that says, here's the revenue.

in the buckets. And it's trustworthy numbers, right? Like, that was the goal. And it was really hard for me to just get that to get to the simplicity. And so I built a model that works, I think well. And so I packaged it so that instead of it having to be a custom build every single time, if companies are at a place where it's like, hey,

 

Kerry Curran, RBMA (27:48.36)

Yeah. Mm-hmm.

 

Sarah Lane-Hawn (28:12.972)

We just want something that we know works. We have the standard channels that we want to measure that everybody else has that I can go in and I can onboard that in a matter of weeks. And then, obviously, we can customize beyond that. But the goal is, can I make this more available in a platform where people don't have the funding to go to the enterprise level and get attribution?

 

Kerry Curran, RBMA (28:40.746)

Yep, yep.

 

Sarah Lane-Hawn (28:41.422)

which means they don't have the money to onboard an external tool that's 30 to $50,000 a year. whereas a one-time build where then you own the solution is a lot more palatable, I think to start up and scale-ups. so yeah, I'm excited to like have that out in the world. and have that be something that people can kind of get their eyes and hands on directly. instead of having to kind of come through and go through a whole custom build.

 

Kerry Curran, RBMA (29:13.576)

Yeah, well, I love that. I love that you're making it affordable and within reach. And what is it called and how do people find it?

 

Sarah Lane-Hawn (29:23.814)

So I named it the Goldilocks model. We don't need everything, but we need just just enough. and it's on my website. So lanehanconsulting.com. I've got it on there. And then I also have it on my link tree, which is Linktree Mops Ferry. So either place, people can end up finding it. But yeah, you know, and I'm also hoping that it serves as a good …

 

Kerry Curran, RBMA (29:30.174)

Love that. Mm-hmm.

 

Sarah Lane-Hawn (29:53.24)

… kind of preview of my work and the way that my brain functions. So that even if people aren't needing attribution, but say somebody's looking for a fractional marketing ops leader or consultant, like, it's a good way for them to kind of vet like, well, who who is Sarah? And like, how does she go about these weird elements of marketing, such as revenue attribution, right?

 

Kerry Curran, RBMA (30:17.65)

Yeah, yeah. Well, you're applying your mathematical background, which I think is just so valuable to everyone. Yeah well, excellent, Sarah. Thank you so much. I definitely learned so much from you and I'm sure everyone else has as well. So really appreciate having you on today. Thank you so much.

 

Sarah Lane-Hawn (30:39.522)

Thanks. I appreciate it, Kerry. Anytime.